umm, You're the one who thinks civilians are legitimet targets. Don't fucking project that "blame America/the victim first" shit onto me.

I see you're not one much for geo-politics. That was a legit war, where both sides had plans to invade this country. Not some Z-grade pussies blowing themselves up on subways and busses.

Take a quick course in 20th Century history in which Howard Zinn isn't in the curriculum, and then we might continue this conversation.

How the fuck am I projecting anti-Americanism to you people? Not to pull the "half of my family serves in the military, including in Iraq" card, but screw it, it's pulled. I fucking love this country, it's in my blood, it's how I was raised.

I'm simply putting forth the concept that average citizens, at best, have little to no control over shit that goes down overseas in a war. How in the fucking world does that qualify as "blame American first" or "anti-American?

And if anything I'm saying is leading you guys to believe I'm implying something other than that basic point, I'm not.

But what you mean by that is, I didn't vote for Bush, so don't blow me up Mr. Terrorist...

Average citizens have plenty of control: they can vote. Too bad the good guys lost the election, but they did. And guess what, we still wouldn't have been out of Iraq.

Good on you and yr. family for serving our country, mine has done the same.

I actually re-read your posts, and you aren't quite what I accused you of, but I figured if you're standing with folks like cman and scash, you are guilty by association

Alright, I see where this got off track. I should go ahead a say I support the decision made to drop the bombs. But I understand now how what I've written could be taken to suggest otherwise.

Hey. HEY! Stop playing nice, fuckers.

C'mon, that's seriously fucked up and ridiculous. You have it in your head that I'm some super far left liberal, and you're projecting all this shit onto me that I haven't said and don't believe. Knock it off!

reread my post; I threw out a bunch of B.S. but my point was a simple question to you (just as a piece of respect, sir) as to why folks hate on their own country.

And when you talk to your family, be sure to thank them for their service to this country from me.

Burnski loogash. That one hurts a little bit. And way to sneak Zinn into there. Just wait til we're reading history textbooks written by Bushco. Then maybe me and Logan and scash will understand.

Chase, the difference between me, and the rest of you geniuses is that I have read things on both sides, and understand that all of history can be chalked up more to a series of happy accidents or the bizarre wills of strange men, not some massive conspiracy by whitey to lay waste to everything.

Zinn is the patron saint for you folks, with Nader as his accolyte/water carrier.

Nobody is my patron saint. I'm some godless atheist pinko dock monkey. Remember?

I could care less if you believe in God, you can still have a patron saint...and I don't truck with the Jebus Freaks any more than I do with pinkos. You are ALL what is wrong with my country.

:evil laugh:

I don't really know why someone would hate their own county. I suppose it's a combination of ignorance and misplaced frustration, although I don't think I actually personally know anyone who hates this country, and if I found out someone I knew did, our acquaintanceship would be promptly ended.

I am however friends with many people who have a deep, abiding love and respect (not to mention gratitude) for their country. So much so that they dedicate much of their life trying to ensure that the beacon of justice, freedom and opportunity that its been for them, is there for their children and their children's children. And probably in their bolder aspirations, they strive to make it even better.


I appreciate that, I will. I'll say "Yail Bloor", too

I don't hate my country.

I love my country.

I am so proud of most of what we've accomplished as a nation in such a short span of time.

I find where we've ended up to be very bad. A warmongering people bent on consuming the most that they can is not a good thing. I think our leadership is seriously misguided at the moment.

I don't hate America and I don't appreciate being told what I hate and don't hate.

You can say "Chris"

And thanks for the explanation; it just gets to me that peoples hate of GWB seems to translate itself into a hate of America in general (this exact same fucking thing thing happened when Bubba Clinton was president---remember "DON'T BLAME ME---I VOTED FOR BUSH")

its just senseless, especially in light of some shit like 9/11; glad that 48 hours of true nationalism lasted.....

hmph

i have to say that the "you liberals" thing that the right throws around is a bunch of shit.

i get tired of being told what i am/think/do by people to the right of me politically.

the liberals i know are really good at pointing to WHO we think is wrong: bush, cheney, the same cabal that has been under the surface of every republican presidency since nixon.

yet conservatives are always ranting: you liberals this, you liberals that.

liberals are what is wrong with this country, yet liberals are not in power.

Is true nationalism really what you want? True nationalism leads to terrible atrocities like The Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking, etc.

I love for America to be united and patriotic and all that, but what if had united around killing our dependence on mideast oil? What if we had rallied around peace, not war?

And apparently that wave of nationalism lasted long enough to push Bush back into office.

The second statement has been true since 1607, which is one of the reasons that we've accomplished so much as a nation in such a short span of time.

Or are we only comparing this to Bush, since that's easy?

yeah, what im looking for is a repeat of the Holacaust. Jesus man, WTF are you even talking about?

I hate it that we are dependant on oil C but the bottom line is that we are.

So why shouldnt we get it? I mean, its not like its cheap; its more expensive than ever but I guaran-damn-tee that you are still fueling up your car.

I'm not calling for a some sort of United-neo-fascist state. But there are times when you, as a nation, have to band up because folks trying to get you. I mean people like you are the first to bring up the Concentration Camps on the West Coast during WWII (which was unfortunate as shit) but will never mention how the folks in this country came together to fight off some shit during that period.

Chase, I guess folks like me just cant understand why folks like you that always want to undermine the shit that has provided you the opportunity to do so.....

I think it's had its goods and bads. I would argue that we did the right thing in World War II by not getting involved too early and selling arms and making money. That was the smart way to play it. When the entire world was threatened/when we could snatch some glory we ran in and "saved the day" (depending on which historian you ask.)

I think we've hit the point where we can't afford to be so consumerist anymore. How can we let people drive around in SUV's that get 6 mpg when gas is at all time lows and will definitely run out soon?

We used to balance our warmongering and consumerism with intelligence. I'm afraid the brains have left the building.

Hey Chris

I think what a lot of people believe is that a President, the current one or otherwise, or any elected official for that matter, isn't America.

"You can dislike your government/president, and still love your country" is more than some cheap, leftist (used to be rightist, as you point out, heh) slogan, it's one of the pillars of our country.

I personally think President Bush has been miserable for America, and it's only because I do love my country, that I'm so angered by some of the decisions his administration has made that I feel have weakened us. Besides, If I (or anyone else) hated America, and thought Bush was bad for it, wouldn't it stand to reason we would actaully support him?

I get this, I play by these rules, and I understand. I am sorry for lumping you in with waterheads like chase.

I mean, its one thing to understand that Iraq may be a blunder, its another to traffic in statements like we jumped into WWII to snatch some glory and only when that was convenient. Its not our country had a little problem like the Depression or anything, or that almost 100% of the country was against any foreign entanglements after WWI. I mean, after a statement like that, you should be disqualified from talking for 120 years.

I undermine it because it needs to be kept in line. It can't grow stale. It needs people to question it to stay alive and healthy. No one wants to do that anymore, or questions why people do it, and hence we have more become a nation of gluttony and waste that wants to make the rest of the world its cesspool.

What did Jefferson say, every good democracy needs a little revolution once in a while. Maybe I'm hoping to spur that revolution on a little bit.



And this is my favorite part. You can guaran-damn-tee the fact that I don't have a car. I bike to work every day. I don't spend money on gas. I may have to buy plastic containers because that's what everything comes in, but I keep my oil/gasoline purchases to a minimum.

I don't just talk this shit, I live it, as foolish as that might be.